Wednesday 2nd June, 2010
Chairman: People of his elk who were the movers and shakers were bewildered and they are still bewildered about the revolution.
I will just give you one anecdote. I was in Iraq recently. In developing countries the currency is the local currency or the dollar. Here the currency is the Iranian currency and the local Iraqi currency. It is amazing how the tuman is becoming so important, not just in Iraq but also in Syria. So that is an interesting situation. Imam Khomeini is on the coins and inside the shrine the only picture is Imam’s Khomeini’s. That is another extraordinary thing. Let us move on for the programme for today.
Dr Ali Kabbany: I am often accused by Western friends of being emotional and I am advised to be objective and rational. They feel that my views are shaped by my hatred of the Jews. So I corrected them. I am anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist and I have my reasons for that. It is a brutal occupier and Zionism is a racist movement. Certainly we as Arabs and Muslims don’t hate Jews and we never had a problem with the Jews. We can find a lot of honest and honourable Jewish people inside and outside Israel.
The latest incident is a crime. It is also an unprovoked act of war against sovereign nations because those ships carried the flag of several countries. It is a crime against humanity, boarding those ships and killing unarmed civilians. So an organised army attacks and kills a number of unarmed civilians.
So if any other nation did this the international community would describe that nation as being a rogue state and a terrorist state. So once again we are witnessing another Israeli atrocity, the murder of innocent civilians and a violation of international laws and humanitarian laws. It is a violation of decency.
So what is the response? There is outrage and overwhelming condemnation. This is not enough. We have heard that before. We need to see actions and punishment of Israel and of the sponsor of Israel.
The outrage this time prompted the Americans not to use the veto. But they made the UN resolution ineffective and useless. Rather than having an independent investigation of what happened they are asking the culprit to investigate his own crime and report to the victims. We saw before what Israeli investigations do. After one year they will come and deny most of the facts.
What is the justification and the defense of the Israeli. In this day and age the media can show us exactly what happened. A helicopter dropped military commandos with machine guns. They killed unarmed civilians.
First they said the ships contained weapons going to Hamas terrorists. But there were never any weapons on the ship. The Turkish authorities confirmed there were no weapons. These are peace activists and it is against their belief to carry weapons.
The other point is that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation – it is a resistance movement. Palestinians have formed an organisation to liberate their stolen land. Israel is a state which was built on terrorism. Irgund and Stern are two terrorist organisations. Shamir and Begin are two terrorists who became prime ministers of the Zionist entity. This is the official British government view, the two men were wanted by British justice.
So how would the international community react if Syria or Iran found an American civilian ship passing and carrying weapons to Israel. American weapons have been used to kill civilians in Palestine. So imagine a commandos group going onto the American ship and killing American civilians. What would be America’s response and what would be the response of the international community? 9/11 will tell you what the response would be.
The propaganda machine says that Israeli soldiers were attacked and they acted in self defense. What else would they do. They are young people with machine guns. And those civilians resisted. So they had no option but to shoot and kill them. This was a civilians ship in international waters so they had no right to be on board this ship.
The second point is that if Israel suspected there weapons on this ship there are so many peaceful and military ways to take this ship to a port and arrest the passengers. It is an illegal act but at least it is human behaviour.
There are many agreements signed between the Palestinian authority and the Zionist entity. Israel has existed since 1947 and the Palestinians cannot change this fact. It is the Palestinians who need recognition. What about all the treaties that have been signed by the Palestinian authority and the Zionist regime? Netanyahu has made it clear he does not respect them and he does not respect the American proposal for a two state solution. So its all excuses. I am just repeating what I heard from a lot of people on public transport, in my office, everyone knows these facts.
We have to really insist on actions that punish the culprit and the actions have to be taken through the Arab League. It has to show some muscle. The West only respects power. I listened to a lecture yesterday where the professor said that the difference between the cultural philosophy of the west and Islam is that the West considers that might it right. But, as the late Imam Khomeini explained right is might.
There is no conflict of civilisations. There is one civilisation and that is the Western civilisation. So Bolivia and Venezuela cut diplomatic relations and sent back the Israeli ambassador when Israel invaded Gaza. So the least that the Arab League can do is to ask all its members to cut relations with Israel and not to conduct any negotiations with Israel until this issue is resolved.
The Arabs should cut oil production by five percent every day that the blockade continues. Everyone of us in the Muslim world should boycott all Israeli products and also American products and goods and services and tell them it is because of the atrocities committed in Gaza.
We can do a lot. Israel is strong because we are weak. The Chinese ambassador once told Arafat that the Arabs were not serious about liberating Palestine because if you spit on the Israelis they will drown.
There are only two honest resistance movements: Hamas and Hezbollah. They are a problem for the Zionists.
We have to go to the Arab League, the Non Aligned Movement and the international community to carry out simultaneous actions. We have to see the Security Council use their teeth as they did against Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, to end the occupation of Gaza and secure the liberation of Palestinian land.
Now we are asking for peace in return for nothing – just return to the 1967 borders. Our cause is just. We have to take action. We have to ask the official bodies to take action and to follow up on that
Majed Al Zeer : Saleem Alekium. I have conducted research to show that Israel has been defeated in different sectors: miltiary actions, strategic actions, media, diplomatic and security. Starting from May 2000 to May 2010 research has shown that we are talking about an unstable, dangerous state. The only way for such a state to survive is to go for a peace deal. If it continues in the same atttiude, in the same manner with such an attitude I am afraid the end of such a project will come.
Such a project has been established to continue and Israeli’s theory is that it is supposed to have more land with less peoples. We have watched two Israeli withdrawals from southern Lebanon and from Gaza in July 2005. We have watched Israel launch two wars and it has achieved nothing from its announced goals.
With regard to security such a state is supposed to be secure. The wall in the West Bank demonstrates to us that there is no security for such a state. It has shown that such a state is not secure.
The resistance movement has arrested and kidnapped two soldiers. Israel has failed with its security forces to know where they are. This month Gelad Shalit has completed four years with the resistance. With such large security forces in such a small area (there are only about 1.7 million Palestinians in Gaza) they cannot find him.This shows that Shin Bett and Mossad no longer have an upper hand in Palestine. The Hague Court has decided that the wall is illegal.
With regard to PR and media. With satellites Israel cannot lie about the Palestinians. The Palestinian story has been broadcast throughout the world. The brutality of Israel towards the Palestinians can be transmitted on the spot. This is the new era of the Palestinians. Israel has been defeated in the media sector. The Arab media had the upper hand to discuss the incident. The NGO’s used the media in a very effective way. Through live sateliltes they broadcast to the world the story of the atrocity on board the ship.
They are also loosing the diplomatic battle. The state of Israel in the Middle East could not exist without support from Western states and a big boost from the United States.
Some people might say that the Palestinians are very weak. Yes. But we are trying to evaluate the situation according to our history and our strategic achievements. We are talking about a new situation. We are talking about our campaign as Palestinians. Our campaign has a great potential and Israel will be seen from a different perspective.
Now we see all the Western countries are calling for an end to the siege against Gaza. This is a new era for the Palestinians. It is an era in which Israel no longer has the upper hand. We are talking about a new attitude from all over the world where the Israelis will no longer have a free hand to do whatever they want to do.
Our problem is how the Palestinian leaders could use such a position to keep going in their struggle. We have just entered a new era which President Erdogan called a milad in the Turkish language. I have just learned from a Turkish brother that that milad is an Arab world but the Turks use it to mean and new era and we are talking about a new era.
James Tring: Israeli forces attacked a convoy carrying humanitarian aid to a besieged enclave of Gaza on 1st June. It is an offence in customary international law to attack any vessel on the high seas. Israeli spokesmen claim their forces acted legally because the blockade itself was legal and had to be enforced.
However, the blockade is not legal because under the UN Charter only UN-controlled forces can enforce a blockade against a Sovereign Nation and only when the Security Council has resolved under Chapter V1 to enforce it. No such UN Resolution exists. Palestine can be regarded as a Sovereign Nation because it is clearly distinct from Israel even though its Statehood is only given ‘observer status’ at the UN.
Even if the siege is legal in Israeli law, which has a questionable history of discriminatory duplicity in application as between Jews and Palestinians, an offence in itself, it does not have to be enforced on the high seas. It should not be enforced at all. First, it is an offence under Geneva Conventions to; ‘deprive occupied peoples of objects indispensable to their survival including wilfully impeding relief supplies’.
Second, it is counter-productive, even in twisted Israeli logic, to persecute and oppress people because they think you should not be occupying their homeland, as a method of improving Israeli security.
Is it a War Crime?
The question of whether this was a War Crime depends on your belief in the Israeli spokesperson, Yigal Palmor’s claim that "Gaza is in a self-declared state of war".
First, it seems unlikely that a largely unarmed group of people would declare war against a nuclear superpower.
Secondly, it is de facto obvious to anyone visiting Palestine that the Israeli Forces regularly attack civilians and civilian objects. This is war. And War Crimes are frequently committed. War Crimes can only be excused as not War Crimes if ‘proportionate military advantage is gained thereby’. But as the Palestinians are not allowed any military forces or even home-made defences, there can be no more ‘military advantage’ than the over-armed super-power already has.
Thus, Hamas may see its Party as in a State of War with Israel especially over Israel’s illegal existence and use of weapons of mass destruction against civilians. But that was not a self-declared status. It was imposed by the Israelis.
So, if the siege and attacks on Gaza are War Crimes, the prevention of aid to the victims must be conducive to War Crimes. This leads to necessary prosecution of Prime Minister Binjamin Netanyahu as Chief of Staff and likely responsible for ordering the attacks and of all decision-makers down the military chain to the zealous commandos who committed the offences on the high seas.
What Legal Action?
Individual Prosecutions
Those affected should launch collective prosecutions against individual members of the Israeli strike force who murdered or injured passengers. Israel is obliged to submit evidence, including identities of all Israeli forces, under the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters, which it signed in1959. Investigation of each murder and assault should then lead to prosecution and punishment under Turkish law.
3.2. State Prosecutions
If individuals cannot afford to act or are terrorized into stifling action, their State should prosecute. Illegally boarding a vessel on the High Seas is an offence against the state who’s flag that vessel officially flies. Assuming Turkey government endorsed the aid convoy it can demand information from the Israelis to indict the suspected personnel and prosecute them if necessary, in their absence.
Prosecution by the ICC
If the State fails to secure a prosecution, the plaintiffs can take their cases for investigation by the International Criminal Court. Its (Rome) Statute allows for such prosecutions even if the culprits cannot be apprehended. They then become fugitives from justice in all signatory countries to the Statute, about half the globe.
UN Resolution to refer the matter to the ICJ
If the ICC fails to obtain satisfactory prosecutions the UN Security Council can be moved to Resolve that the matter be referred to the International Court of Justice. A verdict here would be more binding on the errant Party. But as seen from its Opinion on the illegality of the Israeli Apartheid Wall on Palestinian land even such a powerful body may have no effect on halting or reversing or gaining compensation for, the crime.
UN Sanctions
If all these fail the world community should pressure the Security Council to Resolve to impose sanctions on the errant State. The US is likely to veto such a Resolution. But Article 27 of the Charter obliges States Party to a dispute to abstain from voting. So, given the rising power of China, the renewed independence of Russia, the inclusion of nationals from France and the UK on the convoy and the disaffection of many Non-Aligned nations who sit as Non-Permanent Members, it is feasible that the USA could be obliged to stand down, allowing a Resolution to pass. Initially, this would be under Chapter V1, imposing Sanctions. If such sanctions failed to secure justice and a measure of compensation, taking into account all the other crimes against the Palestinians, the Council could theoretically move to a Resolution under Chapter V11, giving it power to control a military blockade.
It is important to prosecute these crimes because the perpetrators have escaped justice for so long, over so many crimes against the Palestinians, in order to avoid further suffering, deprivation and death. It is in the interests of Israeli security and that of the Jewish diaspora. Moreover, these offences escalate in atrocity each time without fear of sanction. One or more of these courses of action must succeed. They all need our support.
Nadeem, Turkish journalist: Yesterday I was at a conference organised by the media research centre. Professor Ian Papee was there. He said something very striking. He summarised the whole Palestinian conflict. He said that he was raised according to the Zionist doctrines and ideas. He said that as long as there is just one Palestinian the whole of Israel feels threatened. This summarises what is happening in Palestinian territories.
