They maintain that the president has only a ‘notional’ control over the military and the intelligence is fixated on fighting an eternal enemy, India . Both speakers will talk about the various factors in destabilizing Pakistan , the challenges it faces to win the war against terrorism and the strategic goals of the new Obama administration for this region.
The translation of the Pakistani national anthem is: Happy is the blessed land, the symbol of high resolve, the land of Pakistan. Today some analysts are calling Pakistan a failed state. Sixty years ago a country was created where Muslims could live in peace. It has perhaps turned out to be not a good experiment.
Agha Murtaza Pooya: It is an honour and privilege to address you on Pakistan’s current situation and I hope I will be able to enlighten myself a little more and then you. The agenda for the day is the quest for stability and talibanization and the rest of it.
Unfortunately Pakistan, and the rest of the Muslim world lives in a region which was designated 35 years ago to be in a state of constant flux. That means stability could not and should not visit this region at all. This was designated after the so-called mock Ramadan war we had in 1973. So all nations are in a state of flux but Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan get a little extra share of this instability.
Pakistan has been called a failed state but I see no failure on our part. We will be able to survive this vicissitudes. In fact if we look back the Soviet Union collapsed. I do not know who is a failed state. An author from the former Soviet Union, Jankowski, wrote on the ethnic splits of Pakistan – Baluchistan – whatever we lost in 1971.But he did not for see that his own country would collapse. So we do not know who is sowing what seeds for whom.
Pakistan is a very stable country. But what do you expect when you live in a war zone. The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan with impunity and returned unpunished without paying a single penny in reparations. We got the brunt of that. Saddam invaded Iran, unpunished without a penny in reparations. The Zionist enemy occupied Palestine and invaded Lebanon at its leisure and pleasure. Unpunished an no reparations.
So we live in shatterment, we live in a war zone. If anyone expects more stability he must be living on another planet.. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the response to it by our so-called Muslim brothers was one of the most mischievous things we can imagine. And we are paying the price for it today through the so-called talibanization, the so-called fundamentalism, the so-called extremism. These are all manipulated situations. The Soviet Union was invited into Afghanistan by the US and because the US had a agenda she was going to impose a war on Iran via Saddam. So they thought they could contain the Islamic revolution through a pincer movement. You will lose some Russians but your whole empire will get saved and we will be saved.
We saw how the so-called jihad came up and a lot of our Arab friends, especially from Egypt, my Brother Heblawi’s country came for jihad. I used to tell them is you are so keen for jihad why don’t you go and fight in Palestine. Palestine was delivered and people were coming and fighting in Pakistan. We did not need one warrior from outside Pakistan. We just didn’t need them.
So this is the game of inducing so-called jihad. What jihad can be fought on petro dollars. There is zero commitment. It is pure mischief just to keep this region on the boil and prevent the Islamic revolution which surfaced in Iran. It wasn’t an Iranian revolution. It had nothing to do with Iran. It was an ideological Islamic position and it was going to spread all over.
In 1979 when Imam Khomeni arrived in Tehran Carter asked Kissenger if the Islamic revolution was a threat to Israel and America. He said of course it is the biggest threat. But don’t worry I have enough hurdles I can place in their way and we will buy 25 or 30 years for Israel.
Now the strangest part was that the Soviet Union was prepared to leave Afghanistan by June 1980. And Lord Carrington who at that time was secretary general of NATO brought out a proposal on behalf of the Soviets that if Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran declared their neutrality we would be prepared to go back immediately.
This matter became a subject of discussion during one of my BBC interviews when they told me they were sick of my anti-Americanism. I told them I am sorry I have hurt your sensitivities and tell me what happened to Lord Carrington’s initiative of June 1980. He put his head down and said the Americans told us to shut up because of the war they were going to impose via Saddam.
So they wanted this region to have a lack of international law and the crossing of borders to have lost its sanctity. Now when have such a situation, Pakistan went through it once, twice. When we were about to have victory the Soviets decided to leave Afghanistan way back in 1985.
I was visiting the Soviet Union at that time and I was privy to a lot of possibilities. And in 1986 despite the war raging in Afghanistan the Soviet Union helped Pakistan to stand up to the alien operation Brass Tacks. Gorbachev had a different vision for Asia. He could not achieve it but he meant well and if he succeeded we would have been in a different situation altogether.
I will take you back to 1988. When had General Akthar Abdul Rahman who was for seven years the chief of ISI and the virtual maestro of the so-called jihad. And this was May 1988. He called for me. He was at that time chairman of the joint chief of staff. He was very nasty with me. He said Mr Pooya you are an absolute hypocrite. You were supporting Iran in the Iran –Iraq war but since 1988 you have been so nasty with us. I said you are fighting a cold war. Come out in the open and say who you are supporting. In the end he said Mr Pooya do what you want but be a little bit careful.
Between now and October 1988 the Americans will assassinate us. They will snatch Afghanistan from our teeth. They will deny us a victory in Afghanistan. So we saw the unfolding plans, who General Zia was assassinated along with General Abdul Rahman. He was not to be on that aircraft but he was forced to sit on that aircraft.
Since that time Pakistan lost control of Afghanistan. We were denied to have our say there. We were a frontline state. Iran was also a frontline state but it had the war on its plate. So she left Afghanistan to Pakistan and trusted Pakistan to look after Iranian interests in Afghanistan.
This may surprise many of you because General Zia was portrayed to be a lackey of the Saudis and the Americans or vice versa, whichever way you want to put it. But there was a running battle going on between General Zia, his perceptions and those of the Saudis and the Americans.
We have invested in Hekmatyr. He was our frontrunner in Afghanistan. In 1986 America said you can’t have Hekmatyr. Please pull him back. When do not want this whole region destabilised by the Ikhwanis because if one Ikhwani comes we will find the whole region destabilised.
So we started loosing control over events in Afghanistan. At that time Iran was co-operating very closely with India to get Massoud into the picture. So we lost control of Afghanistan temporarily. But the Soviets decided they were quitting and the scenarios started changing.
Then US policies centred on how to contain the Islamic revolution in Iran. Their policy had been very clear, very simple. Every move the US makes in the region is geared towards how to contain the Islamic sentiments in the region especially those emanating from Iran and how to protect and perpetuate the Zionist regime occupying Palestine.
There are no rules war when it comes to protecting the Zionist regime. There are no rules of peace. We have seen how the United States has been totally emasculated. It has three aims: how to give the Indians a veto, how to give the Zionist regime a veto and how to give the US a veto. This unholy trinity is responsible for the deaths and displacement of millions of people only to protect Israel occupying Palestine. And as the dialectics go on the Zionist regime’s hold on Palestine and the rest of the world is weakening.
The Zionist regime has survived on three myths. One is the myth of innocence that they have been wronged. But from Sabra and Shatilla onwards no one treats them as wronged people. The second was they myth of invincibility that they are a power capable of marching across and nobody would stop them. We have seen events in 2006 and now. When confronted they just collapse. They can’t fight. And the third reason they have survived is because of the treachery of Arab rulers.
And another factor which you Europeans have to face is that Israel has imposed a guilt complex on you. That guilt complex is now wearing thin by dint of time. That guilt complex has prevented Europe from playing a role in the region and from standing up to injustice. That is why this crime goes on. This whole factor of the US rapprochement is questionable. Will the Zionist regime allow them to go ahread with it. It still looks a little muddy.
But if they go through with it that is the final nail in the coffin of the Zionist regime. This taleban business, this radicalisation, this extremism and every act of terror that takes place in Pakistan is Indian sponsored. I said you are crying about Mumbai but you are playing merry hell in Pakistan. They say there is a Shia Sunni battle going on in Pakistan. There is no such battle. It is a straight one-way battle which the mercenaries sponsored by India are fighting. Unfortunately they belong to one school of thought only, who are less than ten percent of the population of Pakistan. And in this ten percent there are these mercenaries who are reeking havoc trying to stymie pace of Islamisation in Pakistan.
Pakistan is in the absolute vortex. We fought the Soviets not under an American banner, not as an American lackey. We had our own interests to worry about. When that chapter came to an end and the Soviets left the CIA and the US was doing what it is doing now – trying to demonise the Pakistan army.
What they did in Pakistan was really very simple. They encouraged ethno-sectarian terrorism in Pakistan and they had the service of democracy laid out in Pakistan. It was musical chairs and recycled garbage between political forces. And again today there is the view that the sweet dream of Nawaz Sherif and Zedari together has come to an end and they are back to their bitter positions.
So some people ask why do you blame everything on others – you have made a contribution. We have all the contribution. We have contributed to this because of our servility and our lack of ideology. And only an strong ideology, a moral high ground can save nations and societies. If you do not have an ideology to put you together you will collapse under the demands and exegesis that come. If you do not a sense of history you are dead.
But there are forces in Pakistan who have managed to survive this cross fire, these musical chairs and they are the hope of Pakistan. Pakistan cannot survive without a deep Islamic movement, nobody can. Even a Christian country must have a strong ideology.
We see how a lack of morality has resulted in the so-called financial crisis in America and Europe. It is a moral breakdown.
I will be ending in a few minutes. I just want to tell you something. I sought an interview with one of the senior generals in Pakistan. I got an appointment. It was supposed to be one to one but there were two other generals in the room. They wanted to sit in on the meeting.
They asked me to come to the point and said let us discuss sectarianism. I said there is no sectarianism in Pakistan. What you are referring to is pure terrorism. It is absolute pure terrorism and we have no complaint against the terrorists. The Indians support them and they do good job. Our problem is you gentlemen, you generals. How can you allow your enemies to operate behind your lines with such impunity? Maybe there is some wisdom, take us into confidence. So that is how it ended.
I was at one time chairman of the Institute of Strategic Studies in Pakistan. We used to have regular visitors from the US. Once a visitor came from Washington and one from the local embassy. He had not even sat down when he asked me Mr Pooya what is happening in Pakistan, in Karachi.
I said I have no idea. Thirty five people have been assassinated two days earlier in a Shia mosque. I said I don’t know what is happening but whatever is happening we are very grateful to you and everyone of you who is antagonistic to the Islamic revolution and Islamic sentiments.
We had a conversation for one hour and he said Mr Pooya I am afraid that the conviction with which you speak something is going to happen. I said don’t be afraid, be sure that something is going to happen. After all there is a God, how long will you play with human lives. Two days later four Americans were killed. Nobody came looking for me.
Therefore this game of terrorism, the US plays it. There was a BBC documentary that in every terrorist organisation: Ira, Badha Meinhof, the Red Brigade the CIA was involved. And when it comes to telling us you fundamentalist I say I wish I was a fundamentalist, I am not. Today you look at us and say you people are blood thirsty. You want to kill people. I said between the two world wars there were 100 million Christians killed. Did all of them die from a Muslim bullet? Did one of them die from a Muslim bullet. After 1945 we saw peace in Europe and a plague on the rest of the world.
And from 1945 onwards after Nagasaki and Hiroshima it has been blood letting of the highest order. Between 1949 and 1979 the theatre was Indo China. How to contain communism? Not communism, Chinese communism. And after that it was Khoemeinism. And the blood letting doesn’t stop.
But thank God a dawn of wisdom is perceptible in US policy in Europe and I think we can see the dawning of a new era. Thank you very much.
Chairman: Thank you very much Dr Pooya. I was getting worried that you may finish on a negative note but that would have been out of order as you are a congenital optimist. You have certainly finished on an optimistic note.
Kamal Hebawi: Thank you very much Mr Chairman and many thanks to Abrar House for inviting a special guest who is a dear friend, Brother Pooya. I hoped that London intelligentsia who are worried about war and peace and human rights and how affairs are being conducted should have been here to listen to him
Due to reasons the vision he had in his long career and the work in politics and academic circles and the second role he played in Pakistan and the area. It is a very big role but give me another chance to talk about it when he is not here.
Brother Pooya mentioned something about 1980 and Lord Carrington’s proposal for the Soviets to leave Afghanistan in peace after their foolish administration understood that there was a trap for them. It happened another time in 1983. In 1982 Brechnev died and Zia Al Haq went to the funeral in Moscow and the Soviet leaders talked to him about pulling out from Afghanistan.
That is why he went to America twice in 1983 accompanied by one of my dear friends. He told me about the visit and how last time they came back through Egypt. So the Americans said to Zia Al Haq don’t worry the plane is there, the Americans will not go out from Afghanistan now. We know when they should go out.. And this is link between Iran and Iraq and the war in Afghanistan.
I will make some points. One day an Egyptian medical doctor came to see me. It was early 1989 he said General Abad is very close to Pakistan and to Peshawar and I would like to go for jihad. I asked him aren’t you in a jihad when you are treating diseased people. How many months do you need to be trained to fight for jihad. He said one or two in any camp. I asked him how many months do you need to train to he a doctor. He said at least 15 years. I said how can I replace you. He was convinced in the end.
But another event happened. Some of our friends in Papi village almost 30kms away from Peshawar closed the private school and said no education. Let us go and fight. Mr Sayad was living in the same village and he said the school is closed and the teachers left. I sent someone to run after them and brought them to Peshawar. I asked them where are you going? They said to seek martyrdom. I said you are fighting with imported guns. Don’t you need to manufacture some guns and other things. This is where Iran succeeded and do something. To go some good work, to advance scientifically and technologically. But the pressures were very high.
When people go to war I was asking myself many questions especially when the Americans were asked to drive out Saddam Hussein [from Kuwait]. Why were you sending your people to Afghanistan to fight. Why were you going to Afghanistan and when the real fight came in your area you did not fight. You asked the Americans to fight on your behalf.. There was no reason for that.
There is nothing impossible in Pakistan – everything is possible. Pakistan took in four million Afghanis. No one was asking about his identity or his career. The same in Iran. Around two million.
The 1983 proposal that the Soviet Union should withdraw their troops. The Americans did not allow this. They wanted the two wars to go together, to stop together to implement the American strategy. Kissinger wrote about this in foreign affairs and other documents.
I saw some people in Afghanistan who were going to stone a woman because she had relations with a communist man. I asked them if she had been to a court. They said no we decided. So there is a big difference between the establishment of an Islamic state and liberation. There will be a time when there will not be any troops on any piece of foreign land. People learned how to fight and liberate their countries. This will happen But I am not sure if the Muslims will be able to establish an Islamic state.
Pakistan was established in 1947 to be an Islamic state and it has never been an Islamic state. Only God know when it will happen. What is an Islamic state? People will be happy with an Islamic state but not a state that is run according to Taliban Pakistan or Taliban Afghanistan. This does not mean that I am against Taliban to liberate the country or anyone: a communist, or a socialist, a liberal or an Islamist to liberate his country from foreign occupation. These are two different matters. I cannot agree with Taliban or their views although they are very simple and honest people.
We were the first people to write a book about Taliban in 1996 and its was published in the Pakistan Institute for Policy Studies where I used to work as a adviser. We were looking to the future and we knew that Taliban would come into being. We did not wait until 2001 for the plots to take place and the American machinations and plans to talk about Taliban.
We wrote about the Taliban to make the Arab world aware about this, but they did not understand the message. That is why the Americans are in the Arab land. I would like to summarise and conclude by saying that the world is in a crisis and the Muslim world is in the worst part of the crisis. Why? There are many reasons but I will mention only three.
The first one is that there is no time in the Arab or Muslim world to think properly about how to get out of their problems. Everyone is busy and there are no proper tools for that.
One of the tools Brother Pooya referred to when he was the chairman of the Institute for Strategic Studies in Islamabad but he did not continue because of politics and his vision was not very much appreciated. But if such people work on this angel they will get the Muslim world and later on the world from its problems.
It is the same case in America and the West where the philosophers and thinkers are not very much appreciated and the way we can find policies changing and change institutes created by non specialists to serve the no good aims in the country. That is one reason: no time to think in the Muslim world. Everyone is busy and everyone is saying Americans will help. Why use our minds?
The second reason is the jihads, whatever their background, managed to put more load on the shoulders of the Muslim world. Everyday there is some saying ‘ jihad’ and the people run like mad to join jihad. What is jihad? They don’t know jihad. And that is why Osama Bin Laden was created and Zerqawi in Iraq and others in other areas.
Jihad is in Lebanon with Hassan Nasrallah. He did not fight the Americans or the Israelis in New York or Madrid. Jihad is in Palestine with Hamas. They know what their duty is. And this is what the West should appreciate. Unfortunately, many rulers in the West and many thinkers as well have borrowed the minds of the Arab rulers.
Let us conclude by saying one event that occurred when the American hostages were released in Iran after 444 days. They were taken to a resort in Germany to enjoy rehabilitation. I don’t know whether the people of Guantanamo will have rehabilitation after they are released.
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*Agha Murtaza Pooya, is the senior Vice President of Pakistan’s Awami Tehreek. He launched the English daily, The Muslim in 1979 and was its editor for almost 20 years.
